“it is ALWAYS about added energy in an unseen or not yet fully understood form: Hence OPEN”

There is no such thing as free energy, hidden energy, or unseen energy. THAT is where we differ. Every thing else is a moot point.

Overall, in the BIG PICTURE, there is NO SUCH THING as an open system. It really doesn’t exist. It may be a very BIG closed system (as large as the universe), but it’s still closed.

There are some minute amounts of energy from things like the cosmological constant, or CMBR, or other cosmic particles (or antimatter, for that matter). But it will never power my 3096lb car. Any “hidden” energy source powerful enough to move my car is easily detected by our instruments. Not much is hidden in modern day science unless you are trying to look inside of a quark for evidence of strings.

Which means you are looking for energy trapped in matter. Fair enough. Those models have been well developed for decades. E=MC^2 and all that jazz.

I’m all about getting closer to 100% efficiency in electrolysis or engines, but it can never happen. You seem like a smart person, so I hope I’m preaching to the choir here, but energy is lost in the form of movement (heat) and light. Our whole world is slowly running down, slowly becoming less energetic with every passing day. Every failed experiment continues to use up more and more of this very real, very non-free energy. Our universe will eventually be at or near absolute 0K when it winds down completely. This is commonly, presently, accepted as fact (unless you have evidence that you accept which shows a corresponding big crunch!).

2H2O(l) → 2H2(g) + O2(g); E0 = -1.229 V

No matter how much you try, you will never be able to burn the hydrogen gas molecule and the oxygen gas molecule and be able to recover those 1.229V.

Water does not contain energy (I’m not counting the minute energy in its vibrations). Hydrogen is not a renewable energy source. That’s why the hydrogen is in the water in the first place – it’s at a lower energy level! Where do you think all of the water on our planet came from? Much more energized hydrogen from stars. Now the sun, with all of its hydrogen, is at a higher energy level. THAT’s where you need to get your energy from. But it too is running down, and guess what that hydrogen will one day turn into? Water. Water is the lack of energy.

Q.E.D. Science class over.

Moray’s device can’t be debunked because it doesn’t exist. it was destroyed in the 30’s. Either way, he claimed to get energy from a large antenna. Nobody has been able to get energy from a large antenna, and our technology is quite a bit better than in the 30’s. I can browse the internet from an antenna, but the radiated power is less than a watt. If there was 50kw of radiated energy flying through our atmosphere that could be captured by an antenna, I’m pretty sure we would have seen it by now on our VERY sensitive equipment (damn Moray knocked me off the internet again!), orders of magnitude more sensitive than was available in the 30’s. (I used to be a wireless engineer, I’m quite familiar with how one receives energy via an antenna)

Coronal Mass Ejections / geomagnetic storms are powerful, maybe that’s what he was picking up. In the 1850’s I believe they even shorted out a telegraph line (which is a really long antenna).

I don’t even know why I’m telling you all this. You already know everything I’m telling you. You just choose to believe in something else, some X factor that we don’t know about. Belief isn’t scientific, so I would start with writing theories OR recording natural phenomena. Start there and work backwards. But don’t claim that free energy exists but is presently undetectable without evidence to back it up.

You don’t create energy, you discover it.

And any public site “lets the kooks in” as you put it.. I would even allow you in, lol (you deserved that)… As i was allowed in here too hehehe ;). However the thing to note is whether i support and tout certain devices & technologies or not.. if you have a specific comment, go for it: Generalities meant to color with negative emotional response are worthless… And rather transparent in motive. And apparently from your apology, this backhanded dis-ing and deliberately trying to denigrate people in this field is so usual for you, that you no longer even notice that you are doing it (if we are to take you at your word on it anyway).

Your single comment about Moray and Free Energy was telling, you were not able to debunk him at all, which is not surprising as no one has been able to in 70 years. Nor is your comment about the debacle 4 months ago about LENR anything of real value in the debunking line (which must still be rather a painful subject for you guys, lol). The reason that exactly-20-years thingie happened with the Navy Research Lab, was “Energetics” of Israel’s great leap in efficiency with their “superwave” technology, which is reported to be “COP>25″ (well, that plus the fact that over 120 Universities all the world successfully repeated the experiment and documented them with Peer-Reviewed Papers.. Oddly enough, NONE of them in the U.S. lol). Actually, they do not count the amount of energy needed to concentrate Deuterium in the water in their figures, which they should,. imo. But if they used the freezing ice method, it is not that energy-intense and probably makes it around COP>20 and a little better in large quantity.

Regarding Suppression… Let’s follow the money here: If YOU were in charge of a hundred-billion Dollar a year in PROFITS ALONE corporate entity…. What would YOU do to remain so? What would you do to stifle competition that would quickly end your “easy-money” monopoly? If you were in a “Big Boy’s Club” with international bankers on your Board, and with some of your people on THEIR boards, as well as the car manufacturing corporations and the coal mining corps in a “musical chair ” arrangement on each others’ boards of directors; and with politicians by the score in your pockets…. And this good ol’ boys club had the wherewithal to insure oil was used on this planet as fuel as much as humanly possible, for as long as possible…. And also had the ability to completely manipulate the energy futures commodities markets to illegally fix prices and cause consumer price “bubbles” when ever you wanted via speculation schemes that totally rigged the Markets…. Would YOU not do so?

Each of us must answer that question for ourselves, but Human Nature being what it is, these people most certainly WOULD DO SO, because they can so easily get away with it. More and worse crimes have been done using the cynical excuse of “maximizing stockholder profits”, than in the name of crack cocaine.

Just answer why the Stanley Meyer system of ultra-efficient hydroxy efficiency (using pulsed DC high voltage in a “water capacitor” arrangement), shown to many scientific and engineering witnesses be up to 40 times more efficient than “Faraday Efficiency”…. Has never had an open university study done on it (the ONE highly questionable study done by NASA around 30 years ago on hydroxy hardly counts; it was not a “University”, and not Meyer’s specific system) .

Lol would not something that has the potential to eliminate gasoline as a fuel merit such a Study? Yet it has never been done in over 20 years… WHY IS THAT?

Answer THAT, because it gets to heart of the matter, and to our points. In the end, that is all we are asking: That these technologies be openly studied by our Universities.

You know, i’ve had this discussion many times… And i will now “cut to the chase”: I can always get the opponent to admit that there are “legitimate” reasons for suppressing technologies, if they could be used as dangerous weapons. In these cases, they also admit that the 3,000 cases of Patent Applications that were “secretized” by the military (as reported by Dr. Thomas Valone, former Patent Office employee), could logically have been done “for our national security”.

So right there, the notion that “suppression does not happen” is completely exploded. Knowing what we know about human nature again… Are we so sure ALL of those 3,000 technologies, such as the above mentioned, are really “dangerous to national security”?…. Or indeed are many of them simply: “Dangerous to energy cartel security”"?

It is highly naive and disingenuous to expect that they are… And that these people who stand to lose TRILLIONS in profits would not do all they could to hold on to this extraordinary power they hold over us all.

If I gave some logical fallacy in the form of an ad hominem, then I truly apologize. I’m pretty sure it’s the wild claims that are being investigated and attacked here.

Now you say that you aren’t creating over-unity devices in a closed system….that’s great, but most of the websites are named exactly that, or contain information that is exactly that. Maybe they’re just being foolish and are destroying your “cred”. Fine. You should say so more clearly, and correct those who think otherwise. An example of this is to kick out of your club anyone who claims water is a fuel, or hydrogen can be extracted using less energy than you get from burning it, etc. I’ve done plenty of research on your website and others, and you freely let the kooks in. It ruins your reputation. Might as well believe in xxx or yyy. “Believe”. Scientists don’t believe in things. They create or refute. Right now I’m refuting, and you’re not creating.

So you then are now extracting energy from unknown sources. Ok. Make one. Stop being greedy and release the plans to the world so that we all may make one. What’s more important, money, or everlasting fame? Did Einstein sell his research, or Galileo, or Newton, or Copernicus?

I guess Edison and Tesla did…but Edison actually created stuff (stolen ideas or not, it’s in my house).

Regarding Moray: “Moray refused to sell his technology to corporate interests, fearing its misuse.”
“Moray, as Nikola Tesla before him, was unsuccessful in introducing his devices working on this principle. Some report that his secret was forgotten. Moray tried for several patents to no avail. ”

What could possibly motivate him to do so? Would you rather look like a fool or a distinguished scientist? The line separating the two is not a fine one – it is broad, testable and repeatable.

BTW, a search for Moray pulls up “free energy” more often than not. Why?

This is not new. You and your ideas are not new. They have been around for centuries, and not one yet has produced anything that will power my computer. The reason why there are skeptics in this fringe field is because people have been promised energy and let down over and over again. For CENTURIES. Either end the nonsense, or stop filling the heads of those who don ‘t know better. This whole “movement” is doing more harm than good to modern day science.

Most cold fusion press releases sound like this:

1. We looked for excess neutrons
2. We found excess neutrons!
3. ?????
4. Cold fusion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree that some science is being done, but they just don’t know what it is yet. When I can buy one on eBay, then your revolution has come.

From your link: “This proof was brought with the experiment reported here, whereby an electrical power loss of (2.87+/-0.89)nanowatts is seen in comparison with a produced mechanical engine power of approx.(150+/-50)nanowatts, so that at least the difference is taken from vacuum-energy for sure.”

Wow, nanowatts. Congrats on doing the science. But this isn’t an alternative energy source. He’s invented a fancier radiometer.

http://images.google.com/images?&q=radiometer

And in real science, there’s no such thing as a skeptic. It either works or it doesn’t. 0 = 0, or 10 = 0. Skeptics only exist in the realm of the make believe.

Debunk Moray then….

You can’t, smarter people than you have tried for over 70 years. Have fun.

And you can stick your ad homenim’s up your “Maxwell’s Demon”…. Here’s a clue for you (..which these peeps never seen to get): All those comments do is show the rest of us what you are really about.

Debunk Dr. T. Henry Moray’s device that produced up to 50k Watts of energy in the 1930’s and early 1940’s from the environment… And we’ll talk ;) You can forget about “batteries” or trying the old “close-coupled inductance” B-S, you will get your head handed to you. But please try it anyway.

Otherwise, you should keep your ad hominem attacks to right-wing neo-con rah-rah web sites, where they are the usual method of communication.

Those out there genuinely interested in learning more about these subjects of “non-conventional alternative energy” that have been suppressed for over 100 years to keep us using as much fossil fuels as possible; for as long as possible… Can go here for starters (many links there):

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=55551307954

Most content there is presently in the “Photo” section (the Facebook site is meant as a “teaser” to get peeps studying on their own, to MAKE UP THEIR OWN MINDS.

You will soon see that the Open Source paradigm, eliminating the usual pitfalls of “Secretization” of Patent Requests by the U.S. military industrial complex (which has happened to over 3,000 applications), and the problems of “Corporate Shelving” and of inventors being “blackballed” from reaching Market through constant legal attack, will soon bring these technologies out into the light…

Forcing Universities to finally start doing open Peer-Reviewed Abstracts and Studies on them. Because that IS ALL we are asking: That these highly promising technologies that would provide cheap, clean, and save energy be Studied openly. WHY HAVE THEY NOT BEEN? Because presently in the U.S., all Grant funding to the institution is cut if they try. Why again? Because any energy solution that is cheaper than coal or oil cannot be accepted in a society built on “scarsity”.

The Open Source Free Energy movement allows these techs to be verified and proved, then released to the world. No one is asking for money; no charlatans or deluded inventors’ devices get by our testing (and there certainly are some out there lol.. But Thane Heines IS NOT one of them; his devices work as promised). So the only way they can stop us now, is to convince us to stop study ourselves (and they certainly try, usually quite pathetically lol).. So no worries folks, that ain’t happening’ ;)

…. And you can stick this below link the same place you put your ad hominems:

Prof. Dr. Claus W. Turtur of the University of Applied Sciences Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel in Germany has built a simple motor, that spins within a vacuum using only the Zero Point Energy field as propulsion.

His site (in German and English):

http://public.rz.fh-wolfenbuettel.de/~turtur/physik/

PDF of his Paper on the subject here:

http://www.wbabin.net/physics/turtur1e.pdf

The knee-jerk naysayers (not actually “Skeptics”, since that requires intellectual engagement and research: Meaning actual WORK) want you to believe that we are promoting “perpetual motion”…. That is a deliberate lie and NOT the case at all. We are describing OPEN systems, with energy entering the equation from unseen sources… Not a CLOSED system. Don’t let them pull the “perpetual motion” and “conspiracy theory” B-S for denigration and ridicule (..used for emotional response): They are their favorite methods of denial, and useful for never having to answer the important points brought up. But i think most of you out there are smarter than that, lol.

It may appear that very soon, perhaps even by the end of this year…. These same folks who denied LENR / Cold Fusion for exactly 20 years, and had to eat a particularly-nasty tasting crow 5 months ago when it was finally accepted by the U.S. mainstream scientific community.. Will be again eating it for other subjects.

Bon Apetit ;)

Jibbguy (Steve Windisch) 7-29-08

P.S.: Have fun debunking Moray, and ‘good luck”… You will need it.

It usually starts out by someone proclaiming to end our dependence on fossil fuels, and then ends up saying it “doesn’t have to be commercially viable to be scientifically valid”. Which is it? What problem are you trying to solve?

People (like Mark) get so heated up when people dismiss their wild claims…well, wild claims demand wild evidence. Power your computer off of this free energy, and I’ll construct a device of my own.

If something creates free energy, one should be able to couple multiple devices together and create, in effect, INFINITE ENERGY. Do this, power your home by it, and sell it back to the grid, then scan in the Electric Company’s receipts, and you’ll be a millionaire overnight and go into the history books.

That hasn’t happened, and it won’t happen, because it’s not possible in our current understanding of the world.

A fun side-step into this over-unity crowd is the “big corporations control the world” sub-group. This often leads into a treatise on economics and capitalism etc etc blah blah blah. Stick to science and let the educated people in their respective fields worry about the outcomes of your inventions.

BTW it’s not nice to make wild claims, and then mock the people who dismiss your wild claims by comparing yourself to past scientific martyrs like Galileo. That just adds emotion into a debate that doesn’t need it. We know what you are saying. You aren’t being persecuted, you just have to produce.

Thx for the discussion and exchange of ideas/opinions…

You wrote:
“However, there are aspects to both that betray some latent factors that have not yet been explained away 100% satisfactorily.”

And what makes me so angry is that when career, well respected, well published and cited scientists make some discovery that contradicts theory, the scientific community calls them delusional! So, they were perfectly sane for the 20 to 30 years prior, then all of a sudden are delusional or incompetent, then if they go back to ‘accepted’ science they are competent again! Bullshit! That kind of behavior defies reason.

The simple fact that many scientists who were very interested in CF didn’t try any experiments because they were AFRAID, pretty much indicates how poor a state our scientific establishment is in. That’s the real story. Science is about testing the unknown to learn more about it; fear should NOT be a factor.

When it comes to making breakthrus, modern (big) science is pretty useless. Its all about adding another decimal place to already very accurate theories… we don’t need no more sticking decimal places! The breakthru discoveries that will catapult us out of the fossil fuel era will be found in the ANOMALIES, not the known.

Best Wishes,
Mark

My original “derogatory” comment about CF being the homeopathy of physics, really wasn’t meant to be a well-aimed swipe at dismissing an entire field. The majority of homeopathy/cold fusion doesn’t bear close scrutiny, though and even advocates will admit that if pressed (very hard). However, there are aspects to both that betray some latent factors that have not yet been explained away 100% satisfactorily.

My gut feeling is that at some point these factors will be revealed to be nothing more than experimental artefacts in 99.999% of instanes. But, who knows, maybe something testable and fully reproducible will emerge in the next two decades.