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	<title>Comments on: Rhodiola rosea</title>
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	<link>http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/rhodiola-rosea.html</link>
	<description>Science Blog from Freelance Science Writer David Bradley</description>
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		<title>By: David Bradley</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/rhodiola-rosea.html/comment-page-20#comment-631300</link>
		<dc:creator>David Bradley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 07:07:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/?p=2089#comment-631300</guid>
		<description>Yes, Elizabeth, but by definition something that stimulates is a stimulant whether it&#039;s a chemical, a thought triggering chemical release (adrenalin, perhaps?), or whatever...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Elizabeth, but by definition something that stimulates is a stimulant whether it&#8217;s a chemical, a thought triggering chemical release (adrenalin, perhaps?), or whatever&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Elizabeth Harley</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/rhodiola-rosea.html/comment-page-19#comment-631289</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth Harley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/?p=2089#comment-631289</guid>
		<description>Hi David. It is possible for something to have a stimulant EFFECT without being or containing any stimulants. (Even a thought can have a stimulant effect - just think of how you feel on waking to discover your alarm hasn&#039;t gone off and you have 30 minutes to get to work!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi David. It is possible for something to have a stimulant EFFECT without being or containing any stimulants. (Even a thought can have a stimulant effect &#8211; just think of how you feel on waking to discover your alarm hasn&#8217;t gone off and you have 30 minutes to get to work!)</p>
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		<title>By:  CH</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/rhodiola-rosea.html/comment-page-19#comment-634794</link>
		<dc:creator> CH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 03:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/?p=2089#comment-634794</guid>
		<description>&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;Reading @sciencebase Rhodiola rosea http://bit.ly/O43jh&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">Reading @sciencebase Rhodiola rosea <a href="http://bit.ly/O43jh" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/O43jh</a></span></span></span></p>
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		<title>By: David Bradley</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/rhodiola-rosea.html/comment-page-19#comment-630629</link>
		<dc:creator>David Bradley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 12:03:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/?p=2089#comment-630629</guid>
		<description>The longevity of a product in human history is not necessarily a positive thing (alcohol, marijauna, tobacco, opium to name but a few have been around for centuries) and who knows what chronic illnesses people who took it hundreds of years ago as a tea suffered. Even today, if it&#039;s widely taken, we really don&#039;t have the stats to say whether or not it&#039;s safe. However, as you say taking a concentrate in a capsule is different from drinking an infusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The longevity of a product in human history is not necessarily a positive thing (alcohol, marijauna, tobacco, opium to name but a few have been around for centuries) and who knows what chronic illnesses people who took it hundreds of years ago as a tea suffered. Even today, if it&#8217;s widely taken, we really don&#8217;t have the stats to say whether or not it&#8217;s safe. However, as you say taking a concentrate in a capsule is different from drinking an infusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/rhodiola-rosea.html/comment-page-19#comment-630625</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:35:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/?p=2089#comment-630625</guid>
		<description>I am not stating the following as absolute proof of anything, just as things to take into consideration in looking at Rhodiola Rosea. One is positive, one negative, but related.  

The positive first: Rhodiola Rosea is reported to have been used by the natives of Siberia for at least 1000 years. If there were severe side effects, likely they would have been found. Also, there are several varieties of Rhodiola - and from what I have read the Rhodiola Rosea is by far the most effective.

Now the negative: Most of us take the herbal root whole in capsules ( at least I assume that what is in my capsules is ground up root), and the natives of Siberia drank it as a tea. So I do have a concern that we may be getting harmful agents that do not come into the tea, or at least not in significant quantities, by actually eating the root.

Anne Johnson</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not stating the following as absolute proof of anything, just as things to take into consideration in looking at Rhodiola Rosea. One is positive, one negative, but related.  </p>
<p>The positive first: Rhodiola Rosea is reported to have been used by the natives of Siberia for at least 1000 years. If there were severe side effects, likely they would have been found. Also, there are several varieties of Rhodiola &#8211; and from what I have read the Rhodiola Rosea is by far the most effective.</p>
<p>Now the negative: Most of us take the herbal root whole in capsules ( at least I assume that what is in my capsules is ground up root), and the natives of Siberia drank it as a tea. So I do have a concern that we may be getting harmful agents that do not come into the tea, or at least not in significant quantities, by actually eating the root.</p>
<p>Anne Johnson</p>
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		<title>By: David Bradley</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/rhodiola-rosea.html/comment-page-19#comment-630623</link>
		<dc:creator>David Bradley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:08:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/?p=2089#comment-630623</guid>
		<description>This is the abstract from the latest research paper on R rosea:

&quot;Rhodiola rosea (roseroot) extract is a commercially successful product, primarily used to reduce the effect of fatigue on physical and mental performance. In this perspective we present our investigation of the most recent studies performed on human subjects. With a focus on the statistical methods we found considerable shortcomings in all but one of the studies that claim significant improvement from roseroot extract. Overall, the study designs have not been well explained. Experimental results have been confused and appear to be in some cases incorrect. Some of the conclusions are based on selected results and contradicting data have not been adequately taken into account. We point to other studies of higher quality performed on roseroot, several that found no significant effect and one that did. We conclude that the currently available evidence for the claimed effects is insufficient and that the effect of Rhodiola rosea is in need of further investigation before therapeutic claims can be made.&quot;

This is to published in the respected journal &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thieme-connect.de/DOI/DOI?10.1055/s-0029-1185720&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Planta Med&lt;/a&gt; and went online at the end of May. The paper is by Blomkvist J, Taube A, Larhammar D of the Department of Neuroscience, Unit of Pharmacology, Uppsala University, Uppsala, Sweden.

So, although there are claims around that &quot;researchers tout its usefulness in warding off depression, cancer and cardiopulmonary dysfunctions...treat hypertension, irritability, headaches, fatigue and many other sleep disturbances...increasing thyroid function, improving memory and learning capabilities, regulating menstruation and infertility and even helping to protect one from environmental toxins.&quot; It looks like other researchers who have studied the studies come to a very different conclusion.

Panaceas are the medical equivalent of perpetual motion machines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the abstract from the latest research paper on R rosea:</p>
<p>&#8220;Rhodiola rosea (roseroot) extract is a commercially successful product, primarily used to reduce the effect of fatigue on physical and mental performance. In this perspective we present our investigation of the most recent studies performed on human subjects. With a focus on the statistical methods we found considerable shortcomings in all but one of the studies that claim significant improvement from roseroot extract. Overall, the study designs have not been well explained. Experimental results have been confused and appear to be in some cases incorrect. Some of the conclusions are based on selected results and contradicting data have not been adequately taken into account. We point to other studies of higher quality performed on roseroot, several that found no significant effect and one that did. We conclude that the currently available evidence for the claimed effects is insufficient and that the effect of Rhodiola rosea is in need of further investigation before therapeutic claims can be made.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is to published in the respected journal <a href="http://www.thieme-connect.de/DOI/DOI?10.1055/s-0029-1185720" rel="nofollow">Planta Med</a> and went online at the end of May. The paper is by Blomkvist J, Taube A, Larhammar D of the Department of Neuroscience, Unit of Pharmacology, Uppsala University, Uppsala, Sweden.</p>
<p>So, although there are claims around that &#8220;researchers tout its usefulness in warding off depression, cancer and cardiopulmonary dysfunctions&#8230;treat hypertension, irritability, headaches, fatigue and many other sleep disturbances&#8230;increasing thyroid function, improving memory and learning capabilities, regulating menstruation and infertility and even helping to protect one from environmental toxins.&#8221; It looks like other researchers who have studied the studies come to a very different conclusion.</p>
<p>Panaceas are the medical equivalent of perpetual motion machines.</p>
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		<title>By: Aditya</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/rhodiola-rosea.html/comment-page-19#comment-630620</link>
		<dc:creator>Aditya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 08:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/?p=2089#comment-630620</guid>
		<description>David,

Please be more specific when describing your results in &quot;fundamental statistics.&quot; Without context, the result you quote is meaningless. For example: if you are trying to detect if a two-sided coin is biased, how many flips do you need to reject the null hypothesis (that the coin is unbiased) with p &lt; 0.01?

Hint: it ain&#039;t anywhere near 10,000.

More to the point, with decent statistical intuition, it is often possible to make reasonable estimations of likelihood of the effects of a single factor. This becomes increasingly true as the effect size increases, and more alternative factors are reasonably controlled for. It doesn&#039;t take too many strikes to the head to conclude that it wasn&#039;t your breakfast bowl of Cheerios that knocked you out.

Anyway, your points about long-term side effects are well-taken. It&#039;s a risk I imagine is acceptable for those suffering from extreme depression or fatigue. If, like acetaminophen, it turns out that we&#039;ve been wrong the whole time, well... maybe then some will decide it wasn&#039;t worth it. But I suspect many will not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,</p>
<p>Please be more specific when describing your results in &#8220;fundamental statistics.&#8221; Without context, the result you quote is meaningless. For example: if you are trying to detect if a two-sided coin is biased, how many flips do you need to reject the null hypothesis (that the coin is unbiased) with p &lt; 0.01?</p>
<p>Hint: it ain&#8217;t anywhere near 10,000.</p>
<p>More to the point, with decent statistical intuition, it is often possible to make reasonable estimations of likelihood of the effects of a single factor. This becomes increasingly true as the effect size increases, and more alternative factors are reasonably controlled for. It doesn&#8217;t take too many strikes to the head to conclude that it wasn&#8217;t your breakfast bowl of Cheerios that knocked you out.</p>
<p>Anyway, your points about long-term side effects are well-taken. It&#8217;s a risk I imagine is acceptable for those suffering from extreme depression or fatigue. If, like acetaminophen, it turns out that we&#8217;ve been wrong the whole time, well&#8230; maybe then some will decide it wasn&#8217;t worth it. But I suspect many will not.</p>
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		<title>By: David Bradley</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/rhodiola-rosea.html/comment-page-19#comment-630619</link>
		<dc:creator>David Bradley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 07:46:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/?p=2089#comment-630619</guid>
		<description>Just a few quick additional thoughts. Anecdotal evidence is fine in the absence of proper trials of any product with considered conventional or alternative. However, fundamental statistics would show that you need around 10,000 anecdotes to have an error margin of 1%. That means you need 10,000 cases describing benefits before you know to a one in one hundred degree of accuracy that those benefits are actually due to the thing being tested.

Moreover, just because users have not noticed any side-effects doesn&#039;t mean they are not happening. Taking mega doses of vitamin C, for instance, seemingly has no side-effects until one day you get the agonising gripping pain of kidney stones...

There are also the general contraindications that might exist between any physiologically active product, whether mainstream or alternative, and medical conditions and other drugs or products a person might be taking. Who&#039;s to say (in the absence of widespread trials) that taking R rosea is not a serious long-term risk factor for a particular illness  for a sub-group of users who happen to have hypertension, say?

Bottom line is, of course, you can take what you like, many people do, it may make you think you&#039;re healthier than you otherwise would be, but almost certainly it is not a cure-all, and without wider studies, you may be exposing yourself to unknown risks (alternatively, you may have hit on the elixir of life, and out live us all!).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a few quick additional thoughts. Anecdotal evidence is fine in the absence of proper trials of any product with considered conventional or alternative. However, fundamental statistics would show that you need around 10,000 anecdotes to have an error margin of 1%. That means you need 10,000 cases describing benefits before you know to a one in one hundred degree of accuracy that those benefits are actually due to the thing being tested.</p>
<p>Moreover, just because users have not noticed any side-effects doesn&#8217;t mean they are not happening. Taking mega doses of vitamin C, for instance, seemingly has no side-effects until one day you get the agonising gripping pain of kidney stones&#8230;</p>
<p>There are also the general contraindications that might exist between any physiologically active product, whether mainstream or alternative, and medical conditions and other drugs or products a person might be taking. Who&#8217;s to say (in the absence of widespread trials) that taking R rosea is not a serious long-term risk factor for a particular illness  for a sub-group of users who happen to have hypertension, say?</p>
<p>Bottom line is, of course, you can take what you like, many people do, it may make you think you&#8217;re healthier than you otherwise would be, but almost certainly it is not a cure-all, and without wider studies, you may be exposing yourself to unknown risks (alternatively, you may have hit on the elixir of life, and out live us all!).</p>
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		<title>By: David Bradley</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/rhodiola-rosea.html/comment-page-19#comment-630616</link>
		<dc:creator>David Bradley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:42:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/?p=2089#comment-630616</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m glad you have found something to make you feel better Marina.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad you have found something to make you feel better Marina.</p>
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		<title>By: Marina</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/rhodiola-rosea.html/comment-page-19#comment-630612</link>
		<dc:creator>Marina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:12:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/?p=2089#comment-630612</guid>
		<description>Hi David and Anne;

I don&#039;t want to get into the middle of your debate but I would like to share my personal experience.  I have been a long time sufferer of depression for most of my adult life. I have struggled with all kinds of prescription drugs and I&#039;ll tell you, studies or no studies, that although these drugs have maintained me to a degree, the side effects and dosage adjusting have been difficult to say the least. 

I tried Rhodiola and felt better within 24hrs.  I have now weened myself off of meds for almost a year.  My anxiety decreased, my mood improved, and most surprisingly I could see better.  I am able to concentrate at work and for the first time in many years I can actually sit down and read a book!  It may not seem like much to those that are healthy, but to those of us that have been fighting the war of mental illness, this feels like the battle field has finally been leveled.  

I can now think subjectively and make choices constructively.  After 14 years of being held hostage by drugs that just kept me alive, I am now capable of actually living.  

Never mind the marketing techniques or advertising gimmicks.  If a product works, it works.  Maybe not for everyone, and maybe not in the same manner, but at least its effective and there are no side effects!

Respectfully,

Marina</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi David and Anne;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to get into the middle of your debate but I would like to share my personal experience.  I have been a long time sufferer of depression for most of my adult life. I have struggled with all kinds of prescription drugs and I&#8217;ll tell you, studies or no studies, that although these drugs have maintained me to a degree, the side effects and dosage adjusting have been difficult to say the least. </p>
<p>I tried Rhodiola and felt better within 24hrs.  I have now weened myself off of meds for almost a year.  My anxiety decreased, my mood improved, and most surprisingly I could see better.  I am able to concentrate at work and for the first time in many years I can actually sit down and read a book!  It may not seem like much to those that are healthy, but to those of us that have been fighting the war of mental illness, this feels like the battle field has finally been leveled.  </p>
<p>I can now think subjectively and make choices constructively.  After 14 years of being held hostage by drugs that just kept me alive, I am now capable of actually living.  </p>
<p>Never mind the marketing techniques or advertising gimmicks.  If a product works, it works.  Maybe not for everyone, and maybe not in the same manner, but at least its effective and there are no side effects!</p>
<p>Respectfully,</p>
<p>Marina</p>
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